Talk:Discourse Modeling: Difference between revisions

Talk:Discourse Modeling (view source)

Revision as of 18:44, 23 November 2022

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Karola

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 * KK: [[Karola Kirsanow]]
 * KH: [[Konrad Hinsen]]
+* DA: [[Deniz Aydemir]]
 == Section 1 KK ==
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 * - sj: a great next step would be intifying a discussion wewant to capture
 -->
+== Day 2  ==
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= defined categories for each of our data objects but not for axioms}}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text=defined a schema and tried to define a form that will use a schema}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= built a schema upon JC's DG diagram}} (note that this claim adds context to the claim above)
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text=forms not working well to create instances - this probably means that they are not well-specified}}
+*{{ {{d|id=structure |a=KK |type=question |text= should we use forms versus templates?}}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text=created an example of each object and tried to link them on the object, but we're  not at querying yet }}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= records in the db that are targetable }}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text=there are improvements to be made on the wiki side}}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=SJ |type=question |text=SJ: which page were you working on for that?}}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= filling in materials under the group & trying to  (screen share) }}
+* (KM: do not assume intentionality)
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= for a source - we'd add the source category to each participant page}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KM |type=claim |text= properties like "informs" remain to be defined }}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KH |type=claim |text=KH: we'll have to make every claim a page - would be nice to have a smaller item than a page }}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KH |type=claim |text= separate pages work ok for sources }}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text= inline is better - we can do this if we don't rely on semantic wiki to query}}
+*  {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: one thread could be updating the inline format &  syntax - we'd want to do this for an interface anyway}}
+** {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: talk page is a linearization - compact way of viewing, but there are others}}
+*{{d|id=SMW |a=SJ  |type=question |text=SJ: how good are the default SMW views?}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ we haven't really tied any claims to evidence}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KH  |type=claim |text= KH: at some point we want each of these things an entity we can refer to
+* refer to things by their anchors - this is a wiki way of doing this}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: could have a template that includes an ID}}
+** {{d|id=identity |a=KH  |type=question |text=KH: is it up to authors to ensure IDs are unique?}}
+*** {{d|id=identity |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: or plugin drawing from a db}}
+** {{d|id=structure |a=DA  |type=claim |text=DA: everything that is anchored is a child to whatever the parent page is - just need one organizing page - all the claims could be a child of the source }}
+** {{d|id=structure |a=KK  |type=question |text=do we want to make claims subordinate the source?}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=KK  |type=question |text=KK: how much about the structure of our discourse should we understand beforehand?}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=DA  |type=claim |text=DA: this is an argument for everything being its own page}}
+*{{d|id=structure |a=KH |type=claim |text=KH: then we're back to every title being an ID}}
+** {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: solving an infrastructure and a stat structure q at the same time --
+** visualize a bunch of nodes together on the same page - how we split up our convo yesterday
+**if we write a tool to autocomplete claims or sources - re-use - appearance on the page would not subordinate it to the page
+** here's a collection of nodes and links relevant to the subject of the page -- each could appear i nmultiple places}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: individual pages work}}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type=claim |text=SJ: probably does make sense to asssign a little claim ID to things even if we're not displaying it in order to keep track of how this will map
+* SJ: I'll add an additional Id field to make it clear how it will map to a wikibase }}
+* {{d|id=SMW |a=KH  |type=claim |text=KH: I have the impression that what we are doing is not what SMW is built for}}
+** {{d|id=SMW |a=KHG  |type=claim |text=KH: my impression is that Mediawiki is for big things but not a tool meant to be used by 5 people playing with big ideas}}
+* {{d|id=goal |a=KH  |type=question |text=KH: can we move onto our final goal in a reasonable amount of time?}}
+* {{d|id=UX |a=DA  |type=claim |text=DA: using existing synthesis infrastructure makes sense but I'm curious about editing frictions}}
+** {{d|id=structure |a=DA  |type=question |text= DA: if we did this where every claim was its own page and they linked to each other - would we be able to parse meaningful relationships?}}
+** {{d|id=UX |a=DA |type=claim |text=how would I know that this evidence supports or opposes this claim?}} (note that this is related to the Q above)
+** {{d|id=structure |a=DA  |type= question |text=do we need extra metadata fields?}} ( note that this is related to the preceding question)
+** {{d|id=structure |a=KM  |type=question |text=KM: can't we add properties to the claims & evidence that point to specific instances?
+**  page for a claim with bullet points and headers
+** link to evidence
+** when we go to evidence we see things that link - do we see what that evidence supports or opposes or do we know that they are connected? }}
+* {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type= question |text=SJ: what links would need to be enriched with this data?}}
+* {{d|id= theory |a=KK |type= evidence |text=KK(DG diagram)}}
+* {{d|id= structure |a=DA  |type= question |text=DA: if I'm on a page and we list claims & evidence on the page for this meeting - it's unclear how much o this info is visible when we go to a specific claims or questions page
+* everything is linked from the mtg page - have to be thoughtful about  linking}}
+* KK: (water & music discord)
+* {{d|id= UX |a=DA  |type= question |text=DA: how do you get from anywhere to a Discourse Graph?}}
+** {{d|id= querying |a=DA  |type= question |text=KM: that is effectively what we're trying to accomplish with SPARQL query:
+*** if we back up SMW database with RDF  database - you can hit a SPARQL endpoint export as json and import via wolfram to execute queries - there is a relatively easy mechanism to access this data as RDf data, and you can execute sparql queries against it }}
+* {{d|id=UX |a=KH  |type= question |text= KH: from the user's point of  view, what are typical interactions?}}
+** {{d|id=UX |a=KH  |type= question |text=enter text, annotate text with dg tags, person who wants to run queries, aggregator who wants to synthesize DGs --
+** what are the ideal tools for each oth these users }}
+** {{d|id=UX |a=KH  |type= claim  |text=if the wiki is not a useful user interface for any of these users - for ex, annotator, searcher, queryable -- we shouldn't use it}}
+** {{d|id=structure-UX |a=KH  |type= claim  |text=if the wiki is inly a db, then it is not useful}}
+** {{d|id=structure-UX |a=KH  |type= claim  |text=a wiki  with no UI is not useful}}
+** {{d|id=UX |a=DA  |type= claim  |text=DA: use case: collaboration
+*** we write notes
+*** he reads and has ideas
+*** creates a new page with his note referencing our notes
+*** being able to refer to things easily (does everything have its own page - seems to make sense)
+** key thing is when I mention something and I refer to something you mentioned - it would be cool if when you see your page, you can see "Deniz mentioned this claim" wherever it is mentioned
+*** cite or hover tool showing the mention - "this link mentioned by this project etc"
+*** this is the key interaction - the big win of a collaborative tool
+*** people randomly talk about things - but when they mention the same thing we should be able to see that
+*** in the wiki, we refer to things with direct links - everything is a direct link
+- everywhere there is a link - there is a hover that shows everything that links to X
+- rather than having to click on x we can see links on hover }}
+- {{d|id=social-utility |a=KK  |type= claim  |text=KK: this would encode proof of use, proof of utility}}
+- {{d|id=querying |a=DA  |type= question  |text=DA: with sparql queries - can you browse the whole wiki  tree and parse out what you want from that?}}
+- {{d|id=querying |a=KM  |type= claim  |text=Km: yes - it's the right query language for this kind of data}}
+- {{d|id=querying |a=DA  |type= question  |text=DA: can you see the context for the link inside of the page? if I'm referring to a link, can I see the sentence that link is embedded in?}}
+- {{d|id=querying |a=KM   |type= claim |text= we'd need to annotate the wiki using the DG schema and then query against that schema -- the amazing thing about sparql is that anything thats connected, you can get there}}
+- {{d|id=tool |a=KK |type=claim  |text= seems like we're  rediscovering properties native to roam and trying to put them in the wiki}}
+- {{d|id=structure |a=DA  |type= claim  |text=DA:DA: the hover is sugar - we can get there by putting everything on a page:  on the bottom of a claims page we have everything that mentions this claim and an extra field that describes, enriches the mention (support/oppose) context}}
+- {{d|id=agora |a=KM  |type= claim  |text=KM  agora is partly a discovery algo for a graph
+- component of building an autocomplete for DGs is a mechanism to discover  graphs and do the autocomplete so they algo can work off of
+- once there are DG to work from, agora algo seems like a useful tool to search the ecosystem }}
+- {{d|id=agora |a=DA  |type= question  |text= how do you get data into an agora ?}}
+- {{d|id=agora |a=SJ   |type= claim |text= a mediawiki could be an agora}}
+- {{d|id=agora |a=KH |type= question  |text= we still have to encode each node as a page if we want to build on this agaora model}}
+- {{d|id=granularity |a=SJ  |type= question  |text= SJ: question about the appropriate level of granularity?}}
+- {{d|id=granularity |a=KH  |type= question  |text=KH: also identity question - what is the smallest item you can point to?}}
+- {{d|id=structure |a=SJ  |type= claim  |text=SJ: 2 separate ID  Q:
+- let's add the concept of a page for a graph
+- something you can hold in your mind as an image
+- more than one claim
+- individual claims shouldn't be pages, but nodes or entities
+- if we want to do this in the wikiverse we can talk about them as entities
+- SMW will represent entitites as pages but it doesn't scale}}
+- {{d|id=SMW |a=DA  |type= question  |text=SMW will not support a large volume?}}
+- {{d|id= SMW |a=SJ  |type= evidence  |text= SMW is  designed for pages to jave sizeable amt of text, well-formatted and structured
+- we're talking about entire constellations }} (also a claim)
+- {{d|id=viz |a=SJ   |type= question  |text= Q of what viz we need -
+- can still use mw as a viz - what happens when we hover over?
+- want to be able to see the links while loking at the claim in context }}
+- {{d|id=tool |a=SJ |type= claim  |text=SJ: it does  make sense to use a wiki for prototyping and experimenting - like where we want to carve distinctions
+- it's nice to be able to go back & forth in a collab text format
+- take snapshots and convert to a permanently structured DG
+- more lastingly machine readable version of the same discourse
+- wiki capture could feel more like a discourse if the discourse originated with people
+- iteratively annotate and structure}}
+- {{d|id= tool |a=KH   |type= question  |text=KH: it's nice to have a familiar authoring tool like a wiki
+- {{d|id=approach |a=KH  |type= claim  |text= it  would make sense to start with something like we did and have an external tool go over it and store it for later processing
+- wiki is a data entry tool
+- we still don't have relations
+- but this is not so much a problem privately, only when we merge}}
+- {{d|id= goal |a=KK  |type= claim  |text=KK: we're in a serach for conventions: how do we write anywhere in a discourse graph?}}
+- {{d|id= goal |a=KH  |type= claim  |text=our goal is to create Markdown for Discourse Graphs - a set of syntax conventions portable everywhere - we can extract and port to appropriate DB to query and viz later }}